This interview was conducted at 5MMM on 10/1/86 by Robert Pugh. MMM had been advertising tonight's show with one of their whipped up cartridges. It wasn't particularly good, in fact would probably have been downright embarrassing to any band. The person who wrote the blurb was largely at fault, and although my friends and I tried to do an alternative one, there wasn't enough time before the interview to do another, and considering that this is how 5MMM were promoting a concert that they were presenting, we thought it necessary to redress the balance somewhat in C&CS's favour. That's right, we played them the cartridge:

"Grunge out to Crime & the City Solution at La Rox on Friday 10th January. Crime & the City Solution, featuring former Birthday Party and Bad Seed members Mick Harvey and Rowland S Howard. A night of tasteful grunge."

(While the cartridge plays, Rowland moans in mock histrionics and wraps his head and arms onto the desk; Simon gasps a bit, but by the time the cartridge has finished both are busting to defend themselves).

Rowland Howard: Uh, that was beautiful.

Robert Pugh: Okay we have two of the members of C&CS here with us in the studio. Rowland has just fallen apart on the table in response to the advert. What are your initial reactions to the cartridge? Do you think it's an adequate-

RH: Yes, I think it's a totally adequate description of our group in every form, it sums us up 100%. There's nothing more to us than "tasteful grunge".

Simon Bonney: Yeah, I don't think we're especially grungey. I don't aspire to grunge.

RP: Yes, I thought you might end up saying something along those lines. Six months ago C&CS were described as "a tough stiff and overworked" on stage, and this was when you were first starting -

(Immediately they're both half wary/half curious/puzzled. Rowland, the more defensive of the two; I should point out that RH looks most tired and is highly tense. He looks like he's in sore need of sleep, with a blue sleepmask shoved up into a forehead, preventing his oilslick hair from leaking down. Poor bastard, he may relish his lifestyle, but I wouldn't change places with him. Rowland talks only when he absolutely has to. He looks dead buggered, living on adrenaline and nervous energy until this final Australian concert is over. He talks little, tiredly fighting incoherence: when he does speak, it is effective).

SB: What article was that from?

RH: The one that Biba Kopf did.

RP: It was from the NME.

RH: I think that was an admission we made ourselves. We'd been rehearsing for so long that what we did have very little spontaneity, which is largely derived from when you play on stage.

SB: Also, that concert that he was watching - well, that was quite a sympathetic article and I quite respect Biba Kopf's views. I mean that was like our third concert ever; it's been for Rowland and certainly for myself, it's been a long time since we'd played live, and also it'd been only a short time since Epic had joined our band.

(He'd previously worked at Mute Records doing backroom stuff, and played in two line-ups of the Red Crayola after the demise of Swell Maps.)

and we were experimenting and sort've learning about each other in a "live" format.

RP: Rowland, how do you feel about playing guitar in what is an essentially new band for you?

RH: (Laughs)

RP: For example has your guitar style changed or -

RH: (begins to speak but has a bit of trouble articulating, which I've edited away) Well hopefully it changes according to how I feel on the particular day, but, I would hopefully and longingly like to imagine that it has progressed slightly since, over the last three years. I think it has, basically. It's not- It's just this C&CS requires different needs than the BP did. So therefore I play in a different capacity.

RP: Could you define in a, uh, wild way what type of style you have now, or not at all?

RH: I could try and do it in a song - what're the needs of the song - it's just that basically you have to try and convey this feeling of the song without people being able to understand the lyrics, you've got to be able to do it musically. Because in a live situation obviously people aren't going to be able to take in every word-

SB: Also especially when you're playing in Europe where people can't speak English and can only speak their native language, you're going to have to try and convey something-

RH: It's a much more atmospheric thing, C&CS, than the BP.

SB: I think that's partly due to the fact that the way in which we approach writing the songs, is that Mick was the first person I ever met, having been in two sort've versions of this band before, who'd actually sort've like, read the lyrics, and as does Rowland when he writes music for them, and they're sort've taken into account as opposed to a "necessary evil" which certain people have seen lyrics, and singing in general as being a necessary evil.

(Simon is more genial and relaxed, and would probably be good to get drunk with. He strives to make sense of his thoughts; which come tumbling out altogether; in a soft, explanatory, helpful voice. He endeavours to speak clearly, and incongruously punctuates his sentences-of-sorts with "like", "y'know" and "sort've". A very likeable chap, and the more approachable of the two at this moment. I later find out that Rowland can be equally pleasant, but like many of us, pressures alter our personalities in awkward, unaccustomed tensions and torsions).

RP: So here it's more integral?

RH: Much more.

SB: Yeah- and I sort've think the music is basically representative of the lyrics- I feel for the music in the same way as I sing them, and hope that the band feel for the lyrics.

RP: Do you feel confident about your own singing ability and performance ability?

SB: Performance ability? More and more, yeah, although it's been a long time since I've played. We've played what, about twenty concerts?

RH: Something like that..

SB: Like the last couple of concerts we've played in Europe I thought were especially good, and I thought that the ones we're playing in Australia were pretty good; obviously you intend to improve all the time, but my ability to communicate with an audience was sort've like, um, improved, I think that stiffness that Biba was referring to was quite an apt description of that period of time.

(Simon later laughingly admitted to "fucking up five songs" on this night - after the interview. If he did, he covered magnificently, his king snake machine sewing flaws in satin. His visual presence is luxurious, rhythmically fascinating; looping his body in spirals which are broken by the natural angular geometry of his own torso; he looks like he's trying to mimic a cobra which is intent on captivating, but without intending to devour).

SB: I think you'd be the first to admit that things have changed in the last six months since that particular concert and I don't think we were especially stiff even then.

RH: I don't think we're stiff at all.

SB: But now there's the interplay and the knowledge that you get up on stage with and you have a pretty good idea what everyone else is gonna do and like, it's just become much more a band, a solid object.

RP: So 'Just South of Heaven' would be more indicative of the direction that the band's go-

SB & RH: Oh, hell yeah.

SB: More so than 'The Dangling Man'.

RH: Well, the two records cannot be looked on basically as being the same group, because they're not. We only made 'The Danging Man' as a live record, in the sense that we recorded the songs in the way they would be played live, with a few exceptions like subliminal cellos an stuff like that, but 'Just South of Heaven' has a different line-up and people are playing different roles, and because there is a greater number of people in the group people don't have to play, you can play far more creatively as opposed to filling in a gap in the structure.

SB: When we went in with 'The Danging Man' there were 4 of us, and therefore Mick and Rowland were playing a multitude of different roles which we weren't aware of; obviously we weren't able to practice these songs in the way in which they were recorded because we just didn't have the number of people and 'The Danging Man' was recorded more out of a need than out of absolute want. It was just that we had been practising for like numerous months and sort've seeking a fifth member. At the time it was sort've like hunting for a guitarist or keyboard player or that we should do something and so that given that we couldn't play live as a four piece, and go and record.

RP: Did you advertise for Epic?

SB: No, we actually met him during the recording of 'The Danging Man'. He just happened to have contact with our recording company, yeah, he worked for them.

RP: What, as a session musician? (thinks: oh no, not Epic!)

SB & RH: No, no, no, writing biographies-

SB: And I don't know, just counted up the petty cash or something, he just sort've needed work and um-

RP: So you gave it to him?

SB: No, Mute gave it to him initially, and we gave it to him secondly.